Curse

DarrenJasper · Jun 15, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontahcRemire

As to the question of why we are still here? Because this is our game. We came here seeking refuge from all the asinine MMORPG's and stupid CS players. This game is intelligent PvP. It is complex and it is wonderful.

And Most of All It Was STOLEN FROM US.

This game was advertised as low/no grind. My first character took 80 hours to get up to level 20 with moderate skills and equipment. The worst part is: I got RUSHED THERE. Thats like saying I cheated at poker and drew nothing.

We've tried, ok. We have tried. I have watched agony diminish from one of the most competitive groups in guild wars to people who barely log on. We've had the most players on recently that we've had since release. But do you know why that is? Gunz Online. Yeah, I said it. Its more fun and it rewards people for doing what they want.

Really thats what this is about. When we get rewarded for doing pvp the way the game is DESIGNED then we'll be happy, until then we will bitch and moan till theres no tomorrow. I will not move on to another game but drag this one down kicking and screaming because it could have been so good.

This was the silver bullet to save us from idiocy, and carebears have sodomized it and made it their plaything. Thats what this is about. I want my Game Back. I want all skills. I want either all the runes or runes to be abolished. I WANT EQUALITY AND I WANT IT NOW. I want it sooner than now. I want it last week when agony still played guild wars. We are sick and we are tired and we are angry and this was everyone's game that got turned into only the MMORPG'ers game. If you don't understand then learn. If you don't agree because you don't need it then let us plead our case. The only coherent argument I have heard is preference, and thats no real argument.

I want guild wars back from the carebears.

IF I WERE POSTING ON THIS THREAD IT MIGHT HAVE SOUNDED LIKE THIS.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 15, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

MontahcRemire pretty much said it all.

PieXags · Jun 15, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontahcRemire

This game was advertised as low/no grind. My first character took 80 hours to get up to level 20 with moderate skills and equipment. The worst part is: I got RUSHED THERE. Thats like saying I cheated at poker and drew nothing.

Alright, now I've just got to comment on this...

Who the hell rushed you? I got ascended in less than 80 hours and I beat all the missions and quests up to that point with mostly HENCHMEN. Were you sitting there looking at the scenery for 70+ hours?! Honestly, you would've made it faster and with better gear if you hadn't tried so hard to get around playing the game. If you would've played it, even with henchmen, you would've made it just as fast if not faster, and you would've learned more about the game, unlocked more skills, had more experience, etc. The group that "rushed" you...is one of the slowest groups I've ever heard of. That isn't rushing you. Rushing you is getting you to amnoon oasis while only doing 2-3 missions and skipping most every town that wasn't necessary, and getting ascended in less than 8 hours. THAT is how to rush someone...an 80 hour rush? You must've done something wrong.

Remire I don't think you bothered to read any of the posts from myself, or Sekkira, explaining the obvious faults in a UAS/UAR button. If you want this to be counter strike---go play counter strike. Seeing as how you've admitted to bitching and moaning knowing that you're dragging the game down...well hell, I don't very much see why the hell we'd listen to someone who wants to drag the game down anyways. I just don't see sense in that.

Read peoples posts before you go and post something that's obviously had counter points stated before. (Sort of like...this entire thread.)

I'll tell you what I want, not a UAS/UAR button, I want a button that stops myself from continuing to post in this. (I've no self control.)

Numa Pompilius · Jun 15, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

You beat all missions and quests in less than 80 hours - with henchmen?
On your first time through the game?
Hm.

Anyway, let's see if I can summarize the obvious faults in an UAS/UAR button, as explained by you and Sekkira:

1) An UAS/UAR button would be unfair to those who've unlocked all skills/runes through PvE - they grinded for 300 hours before the game was even released to get where they are, everyone else can too!
2) The developers meant it that way.
3) The PvP is not supposed to be a level playing field. If you want a level playing field, go play Counterstrike.
4) The developers meant it that way.
5) People who play PvE & PvP should absolutely, positively, under no circumstances, EVER, have their PvE builds at an unfair disadvantage to other peoples purpose-built PvP characters. That their PvE characters presently have an unfair advantage in PvP over other peoples purpose-built PvP characters is right & proper, because...
6) The developers meant it that way.

If I was a cynical person, I'd say the opposition to UAS really boils down to PvP+PvE players wanting to have an unfair advantage over pure PvP players when playing PvP, and defending this unfair situation with that that is what the devs wanted.

Saerden · Jun 15, 2005, 09:17 AM // 09:17

RP characters are ALREADY at a huge disadvantage. UAS would not change that at all! why? Because its already in the game. It just takes time to unlock everything, but it is possible. Everyone who likes pvp the way it is already has most of the stuff unlocked. So if i go into pvp with my rpg character, i will BE at a disadvantage. Everyone who plays this card is plain lying or has no clue. UAS would just allow more people to have an advantage over the RP character. In 3 months, UAS would not do anything at all. Since pvp players have either left or grinded out everything.

* i have the same impression btw: Evergrinders invaded our secret refuge, burned down everything and build a temple of evil on top of it. I bought GW because its NOT like every other game out there. So i can try it out and decide what i like most... but honestly grind in AO > grind in GW.

xaanix · Jun 15, 2005, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Honestly i dont see the reason not to have UAS or some other mechanic that assists players in getting to the pvp side of the game without it being on crutches. PvEers only complaint is that PvP characters would have an advantage over RP characters in PvP, but i'm willing to dismiss this complaint because if a PvE player really wants to participate on even ground in pvp, all they need to do is spend 5 mins and roll up a PvP character. PvPers have no such option when it comes to them getting on even ground in PvP. Instead of it taking 5 minutes, it takes us 300+ hours. Sorry but my time is valuable, and grinding is NOT entertainment to me.

Give us UAx or some alternate path of advancement (fame based unlocks) and you will solve the problem for the PvP community. The change really doesnt affect PvE players, as they are still able to enjoy the PvE content which they desire. Some PvE players may feel that it is unfair to give PvPers all the unlocks which they have to work for, but there is a key difference, PvP characters are restricted to pvp areas. This means that all that work you put into your PvE character IS rewarded, as you are able to access high level PvE content with that character. PvP would still be accessible with that PvE character as well, if you desired, but PvP would primarily consist of PvP characters with full unlocks for purposes of providing a level playing field where skill and teamwork determines victory.

In other words, bringing a pve character into pvp becomes an individual choice, and not a rule of thumb. If you want to bring a non-finished pve character into pvp, it may handicap you, but you are taking that handicap on by your own will, noone is forcing you to be at a handicap if you dont wish to be. Aside from players who intentionally handicap themselves, all other competition in those areas is on an entirely level playing field, as competitive play should be, and needs to be. I think the tendancy to be overly careful about maintaining RP characters viability in PVP has forced the game into the current situation, where PvP play is severely impacted, and PvP players are becoming frustrated and quitting the game. Hopefully this gets fixed soon.

Nad · Jun 15, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Remire I don't think you bothered to read any of the posts from myself, or Sekkira, explaining the obvious faults in a UAS/UAR button. If you want this to be counter strike---go play counter strike. Seeing as how you've admitted to bitching and moaning knowing that you're dragging the game down...well hell, I don't very much see why the hell we'd listen to someone who wants to drag the game down anyways. I just don't see sense in that.

Another nonsensical post. How is he, "dragging the game down"? Did you mean, "pointing out obvious flaws in gameplay and player satisfaction"? . And stop telling us to go play other games, in his post that YOU REPLIED TO he explained why we are not going to do that...yet. In fact, I think its you that needs to go play another game, I hear WoW offers a much better PvE experience..

This game is aweful as it is right now. I'm kicking myself for telling ALL of my friends that im not gonna play WoW with them, and that I would just wait for GW. I figured there would be better competition and less time grinding. 300 hours and im finally ready to pvp, thats bullshit. I could have a max level character, out kicking ass with my friends in Battlegrounds in that ammount of time. This game is nothing like what it promised, and I think most of the Pro-UAS people posting here just don't want to see this game fizzle out and die. It has so much potential, but right now its burried under heaps of generic MMO horseshit.

MontahcRemire · Jun 15, 2005, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

They said skill decides your fate---and it DOES. It just might not be ALL that decides your fate. A loophole? Possibly. But that's not what I'm here to discuss.

Do you know why I'm mad and seem nonsensical to you? Because I'm speaking an entirely different language. You're speaking the language of a happy gamer who wants no change and I'm speaking the language of the opressed gamer who got his game stolen from him.

I'm not adressing any of your arguments because through 6 pages of the drivel I've been as blessed as I have been to listen to I haven't heard any coherent arguments. I've heard preference. "Elite Skills Should Be Elite," "Why do I need PvP Characters With All The Skills." If you want to give it to me in bullet points that'd be great so I can just knock them out in one post

I hate to break it to you but this change would not effect you in any way. Skill gems/charms are out of the economy now! That was the last way this could have effected the PvE experience of anyone negatively.

Xag, I hate to break it to you but the PvP environment that you so dearly want to participate in, since you obviously have a huge stake in this (the implication being that Agony Guild, Fianna, Neg-0, and the other recognized pvp guilds don't), is gimped. They cut the legs off of it so PvE'ers could have some fun. Now its dragging itself by the hands and it sucks. People need options. People Need Counters. PEOPLE NEED UAS/UAR TO FEEL COMPETITIVE! We do not have robust competition right now and in order to get it we need everything and we need it last week! Now is a substitute that I'm none too happy about but I will take it gladly.

Its a nice little equation really: Skill/Timeplayed = Win
But, if skill is equal then it turns into a constant: K/Timeplayed= Win
Hrm, that doesn't sound like what I was promised.

stumpy · Jun 15, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I dont think they should implement UAS/UAR ... it just doesnt make any sense and would currently limit PvE to some poor hack and slash for worthless xp. I usually only do the quests that reward me with skills to save my skill points, if some people dont have the patience to accuire them, well, there are many other titles out there that fir your specific desires.

A major attraction to this game is it hits both markets fairly well. Both RPers and tactics and strategy hounds like myself. Instead of pounding the UAS/UAR I think there has to be another alternative ... imo its really not worth implementing, unless the devs want to drop PvE and focus on building a PvP game. They would likely lose hundreds of thousands of people. I can only guestimate the number (as I have no real server statistics telling me we have 54,000 in the tombs across all our servers, 148,000 in pvp arenas and battles, and 200,000 across the PvE servers)

Creston · Jun 15, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

Oh please. The only thing you will affect is their profit margin - the servers aren't going anywhere.

AGH I promised I wouldn't post on this thread

I wouldn't be so sure, to be honest. I have no idea how the division between PvE and PvP players is, but there have already been MMORPGs (ie, games that require a ton of servers and bandwith) that have had their plug pulled.

So someone simply saying "Hey, maybe all the PvE guys will leave in four months" is not really thinking things through.

If Anet stops making money, they WILL take those servers down.

Creston

Eclair · Jun 15, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Most of the examples given on how PvP in imbalanced are with runes. However, with the rune trader here, its already pretty close to a UAR scenerio. Most of the runes are ridiculously cheap, with the exception being superior vigor and superior absorbtion. However, Majors Vigor is only 9 points less and costs 10k(a easily obtainable amount even after the patch)

The difference between a major and a superior vigor really isn't that much, considering many attacks have damage ranges and 9 hp most of the times isn't going to save you from an otherwise lethal hit.

On the topic of skills, someone said earlier that make all non-elite skills unlocked for PvP. I personally think that is a great idea. It still leaves the elites for the PvE players to capture, while PvP would have all the access to the "counters" they want. If there's an elite skill they need for their build, they can easily capture it now with the recent patch, and with all the normal skills unlocked, they should have more than enough skill points for elites.

stumpy · Jun 15, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

but if you follow that idea ... which isnt bad ... you should balance the PvE aspect. By taking out a reward(skill) from PvE ... or not needing to do the quest ... alternative creative rewards should be formulated in place of. Otherwise although you still need to waste points on it in PvE ... it will still seem less signifigant. But I'm sure Anet has thought this one over and beat this topic with a stick over and over and over. So I really just gotta be happy with how they have built this game and kept it balanced thus far.

Loviatar · Jun 15, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Kishin

a belated thank you for the information and effort

MontahcRemire · Jun 15, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Stumpy, if it gets the PvP game fixed, I will help come up with enough hours of PvE to keep anyone happy. I'm not saying, and I don't think anyone believes, that the game needs to only be good for one crowd. I think this game needs PvE work as well, but my problem is with the PvP because its the easiest to fix. The addition of other reward systems for PvE players would be a given considering how important skill grinding is now.

As to the idea of UAR being already implemented because of the rune trader, I suggest you go look up the price of a superior vigor. Not to mention that you have to buy one for every character you create because you need to unlock the rune not just have it. If A.Net were to place unlocking kits into the game that could unlock pre-identified items then you would be superbly correct, but right now I don't have 20 plat lying around for a superior fire rune, and you only find a superior vigor once in a blue moon if at all there.

To Unlocking all skills but elites, I'd accept it rather than nothing. That said, its still a piss-poor substitute. Look at my example with spellbreaker. The elites are often the best answers, and in a competitive environment that translates to the only viable answer. Still no good.

I'm all for an alternate solution, but I've thought long and hard about this and the only one I can think of is UAS/UAR to fix the PvP completely. Hell, if this gets backed by people from the PvE community then I'll be vocal for making the PvE game have more depth too. I'm not just a PvP fanatic, I do play the PvE game for enjoyment but the PvE is a wheel you have to get on voluntarily, otherwise you get stuck in the gears and it becomes grind.

Phaedrus · Jun 15, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I'm going to have to say ArenaNet's professional game designers and staff of developers have put more thought into this than you (or any of us for that matter) have.

I'm going to have to say (by virtue of them designing and running this game) that their decision's pretty clear and they are the most qualified people to decide - based on their own trending, metrics, polling, and data - how to handle this "problem".

I'm going to have to say this thread should probably be closed since neither side is convincing the other of anything, despite logical arguments on both sides.

[ ]

The Pope · Jun 16, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I wonder why the rewards for PvE have to be PvP based? Are Anet really asking people to go dropping parties halfway through missions to maximise their unlock rate?

Naralis · Jun 16, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

What about unlocking all skills for a the primary profession once you beat Dragon's Lair? Wouldn't that shut up both the PvEs and PvPers?

Spike · Jun 16, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

How about if PVP's get everything they want, but are then forever "banned" from pve and all expansions

sounds good to me

Phaedrus · Jun 16, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

I wonder why the rewards for PvE have to be PvP based? Are Anet really asking people to go dropping parties halfway through missions to maximise their unlock rate?

They're actually trying to promote team play and cohesive guilds. Many successful guilds will clear areas to get elites for everyone in the party. They'll run missions together to farm, cap, and play together. Not everyone is a solo PvP player who wants to disconnect in the middle of a mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

How about if PVP's get everything they want, but are then forever "banned" from pve and all expansions sounds good to me

...and if I want to play PvP with my PvE character? Oh, a glaring inequity. Hrm.

[ ]

Weezer_Blue · Jun 16, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

"That's how they intended it" is a bullshit arguement. I'd rather you not post if you're going to use an argument that makes no sense at all. "Thats how they intended it". Ok. Why? And why won't they change it? If you use this arguement, I sympathize for your mental condition. I believe it's called "idiocy".

PvEers are already at a horrible disadvantage. Adding UAS/UAR wouldn't further this in any way.